Buying a new car.

"Flavien Vidal" (flyingfrenchy)
01/02/2015 at 07:10 • Filed to: None

I've never seen the interest of buying a brand new car, unless you are freaking rich and don't mind losing a crap load of money

People who buy a brand new Mazda or Toyota, don't realize what the fuck they are doing!

I can't wait until I can be able to buy a brand new car! I honestly can't wait. But right now, I'm making about 80k$ a year after tax and I feel I can't afford it. And according to statistisc, I make a lot more than most poeple!!! I mean, I'm thinking about whether or not I buy a 3000$ miata tomorrow of wait some more and buy a 10K$ R32 GTR which is a lot to me!!!

Granted I haven't had this type of salary for very long but still. I have friends who buy 3o or 40000$ car when they only earn 50k$ BEFORE tax per year. Why is that? Why don't they buy an E39M5 for 15K$ cash instead of that 30K$ financed Corolla they are so proud of ???

What the fuck is wrong with you people??

(PS please forgive me. I'm drunk. It's nonetheless and question I've had on my mind for a freaking long time. WHY DO YOU SPEND THAT MUCH ON A FREAKING BRAND NEW COROLLA OR MAXIMA?? WHY?????????????????)

DISCUSSION (68)

Tohru > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 07:28

New car reliability, new car warranty, pride in being the first person to own the car.

I can work on my own cars and I've owned only used cars. The newest car model year-wise is my '00 Grand Am. The closest-to-new vehicle I've ever owned was a '96 Bronco in 2004.

I don't need a new car. I want one, though. I want to drive something fresh and new for a change and not something where after I buy it I have to scrub stains and smells out of it. Something that is quiet and solid and not something with squeaks and rattles from loose and worn-out stuff.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 07:29

Counterpoint: European Delivery.

Other than doing that, its far better to buy CPO or used cars. Unless you are buying a B6/B7 S4, or even a B5 S4, because the Germans apparently hate all mechanics.

Doug said so.

6SpdTurbo > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 07:29

Some don't have the cash to pay upfront for a used M5.

Some people just want a car they can mindlessly drive from point A to point B and not have to worry about any major maintenance for at least a couple of years.

And of course some people simply can't stand the idea of buying used anything.

Thus, people lease/finance a new CamCordBu.

DipodomysDeserti > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 07:31

About the only cars worth buying new are turbocharged Subarus. Those fuckers hold their value like no other..

Flavien Vidal > Tohru
01/02/2015 at 07:39

Yes, but is a warranty and realiabily worth 15K$?? I understand 60 year old people who have money, don't care so much about cars and want a no trouble point a to point b car... But what about people our age?? How can someone around 30 years old be pround of its brand new corolla?? I just don't get it...

My father enjoys car. As soon as he could afford it, he bought a Reanuld 8 Gordini. Then he bought an Alpine A100 1600SC. That's what our parents were drooling after when they where young. why do young parents drool after Corollas and Maxima now a day? I really don't get it... really...

Flavien Vidal > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
01/02/2015 at 07:41

Sorry, but I'm drunk and I just didn't understand anything you just wrote... I do like Audis as DDs though... I don't think they are "fun" in anyways, but I like them as DDs...

Still, didn't understand anything you just wrote :)

deekster_caddy > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 07:43

I bought my first new car at 40 with a decent salary in a dual income household. Wee also have a mortgage and two kids, so things are pretty tight until the car is paid off, but I expect to keep it for a long time.

It helped that I got a great deal on the car and 0% financing, plus a big tax credit, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it (Chevy Volt).

Before this I've always bought cars that were at least 5 years old and worked on them myself.

Flavien Vidal > 6SpdTurbo
01/02/2015 at 07:43

Well, my way of seing things is that, if you don't have the cash to buy a 15K$ car, why can you afford a 30k$ car on credit????

I mean, buying a brand new DEPRECIATING car on credit over a few years has to be stupid right??

offroadkarter > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 07:45

I'm making about 80k$ a year after tax

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

wait some more and buy a 10K$ R32 GTR

Humblebrag much?

Twinpowermeansoneturbo > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 07:46

You shouldn't buy a new car, you should lease it. We tell all our customers that. Of course, most don't listen and still end up financing. Maybe it's an occupational hazard, and if we told our customers to finance, they'd lease. Who knows

Flavien Vidal > DipodomysDeserti
01/02/2015 at 07:47

Well, I honestly don't know how well they hold their value, but if it cost around 30k$, you're still gonna lose about 10k$ or more in 3 years... I don't see how good it is for someone "normal" who is already paying a mortage and an expensive sofa on credit lol :)

Flavien Vidal > offroadkarter
01/02/2015 at 07:49

Not really... I do have to admit I would have never said that if I were not drunk... But I'm really thinking about going with a 2k$ miata instead of 10k$ GTR...

I got married a year ago, I just moved to Japan 3 months a go and I have a lot more to do with my money that buy a 30k$ brand new Corolla... That's mostly my point here.

It's just that according to a lot of people I should be driving a brand new M5 today, because I could "afford" it... Well, buying a 100k$ car of credit seems scary to me. So why do most people do it?

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 07:51

Ze Germans have a program in the US in which they will fly you to Europe to get you fancy ass Audi or BMW or Benz or Porsche from the factory pick up center.

The only downside is that you have to order the car, this means buying new.

So the choice to buy used.

Doug Demuro wrote an article about the V8 powered Audi S4 and why no one should buy them. The reason is big repairs require an engine pull, due to the engineering.

I mean, who the fuck puts the timing chain on the back of the engine?

I posit that the prohibition should apply to all S4 models, especially the 2000 year model I own, because of needing to pull the engine to fix things like the turbos.

Flavien Vidal > Twinpowermeansoneturbo
01/02/2015 at 07:53

Well, they'd end up losing prettyas much money leasing than buying no? I mean financing + depreciation has to be AT LEAST equal to leasing no? (honestly have no idea, didn't look into it at all)

Flavien Vidal > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs
01/02/2015 at 07:58

I read this article.

But it's a rather specific car. All cars have their things... The E39 M5 I used as an exemple has its infamous Vanos problems... The "cheap" 996 Porsche have their RMS problems and so on...

They all have their problems... But are those 15000$ problems? Well, with the Porsche it could be lol :)

Other than the Porsche, not really...

Tinfoil Hat in a thunderstorm, now with added diecast > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 08:00

I always felt the same and only purchased brand new vehicles after I started a small business, the depreciation still exists but if I don't spend money on stuff I get taxed more so if I'm paying out money I'd prefer to have something I can use rather than paying extra tax. I agree that it's a huge waste of money buying privately(not for business) if you get a new car everytime you finished paying off the old one, if you are going to keep it forever it's not so bad but who does that?

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 08:05

Because all that is based on IF you can work on it. If you have the time to fix it or be inconvenienced. I used to believe the same thing. Then I moved to a place without a garage, where even the most minor things started to become a pain in the ass. As it would cut into work, or I'd have to take it to a shop.

Also if you get one that was horribly maintained or a lemon.

Now economics. If the economy craps out and everyone refuses to buy new guess what? the price of used cars skyrockets like it did 6 years ago, to the point that it doesn't make any sense to keep something that will start wearing out and need repairs.

KnowsAboutCars > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 08:05

I'd say it's partly because cars are seen more and more as uncool recyclable appliances in modern world. Cars used to be cool things that nearly everyone aspired to own, in our modern world that's just not the case anymore.

Flavien Vidal > Tinfoil Hat in a thunderstorm, now with added diecast
01/02/2015 at 08:06

Well, lots of older people I know do that... My grand father has kept a 305 Diesel for the past 30 or 35 years... He died recently and the car is still there.

If I were to buy a brand new car, damn I'd keep it forever lol :)

As you mentioned, unless you are a company, buying a brand new car is, to me, a HUGE waste of money.... I just feel that our parents had a notion of what money is, and would not even think about spending that much into a car they'd keep 6 year... it would have been ridiculous for them!

Flavien Vidal > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas
01/02/2015 at 08:12

Well, I see it a bit like I see people who already own a 5000$ car and who spend 30000$ in order to save 10 mpg. "Yeah I'm getting rid of my car because it uses too much gas" WTF!!!

So of course, as you've said, their is still a possbility of buying a crappy lemon that will die in your hand as soon as you buy it... But come one. You also have the possiblity, if you can't notice a dying 5 year old car, to hire an expert for 1000$ or so... He will tell you what car will last and what won't... and this 1000$ is still a whole lot better than a 30k$ COROLLA (notice the caps lock, COROLLA lol) that will make you want to kill yourself and pay more for the next 5 years...

Flavien Vidal > KnowsAboutCars
01/02/2015 at 08:16

You are most likely right about this... and it's sad really....

It still does not justify spending 15000$ more on an econobox with a warranty over a luxurious german saloon car that may cost you, IF (the "if" is important here) everything goes HORRIBLY WRONG, 10k$ in fixes over the next 5 years...

Tekamul > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 08:19

$15K is kind of a specific number. That number varies a lot by car.

As an example, if you buy a brand new Accord, pay $26k for it out the door. That's a pretty middle-of-the-road option.

After three years, if you keep it clean, and drive a typical number of miles, you are going to sell it for $15k. That means you're paying $11k for 3 years of ownership.

If you bought a $15k accord (2012), after three years you're going to sell for roughly $11k. You're paying $4k for 3 years of ownership.

The difference, $11k, is only looking at depreciation. You should probably slice another grand off that for some repair.

So you're paying $10k for

Peace of mind warranty)

New car look and feel

More gadgets/gizmos

Bragging rights (relatively)

That's the rub. Are these things worth ~$3500 a year for? Some people think so. Which is good, because if less people felt that way, the used car market prices would balloon with a dearth of supply.

Flavien Vidal > deekster_caddy
01/02/2015 at 08:23

But why not, in your situation, buy a fun to drive old E34M5 for exemple? It just seems a lot more fun to me, less, if any, annoying car payments are coming with it, and it still achieves the same function. Only a lot better.

Then again, I may be in my own world and I' aware of that.... I just feel that a the 20k$ I save by buying a E34 M5 over a 2015 Corrolla are in much better hands with my mechanic IF the purchase goes wrong, than in my banker, whatever happens...

yamahog > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 08:28

I used to think the same thing but now I'm making around the same amount you are, and I've never owned a car less than 10 years old, much less a fast/fun one, and daggummit I'm gonna treat myself this spring to something built just for me.

With you 100% on the boring cars though, had to talk my sister's friend out of buying a new Prius to save money on gas. Do the math, people!

Flavien Vidal > Tekamul
01/02/2015 at 08:29

Well, I see it in a way that a 100.000 miles E39 M5 will sell today for 15k$. In 3 years, with 140000miles, it will most likely sell for the same price.

So yeah, you have the peace of mind of an accord(though anything could still happen...). But as someone who has onwed "problematic" cars in the past. 3000$ over 3 years is really a maximum I have spent...

As you, said, is it worth paying 3500 a year for? to some people it is... But then again, most don't realize that, and I don't think they'd pull the plug on the sale if they did....

deekster_caddy > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 08:38

I'm not a big BMW fan, but the same idea applies. Why? In this case I really really want the EREV model to succeed. So much so that I decided to put my money where my mouth is and support it by buying one. It's an amazing car. With the tax credit the thing was "only" $28.5K, that's within my 'affordable' price range and in my opinion a huge bargain for what it is.

The Volt IS fun to drive. I was paying $300/mo on my old Yukon XL, and about $350/mo in gas. Not I pay $600/mo for the car loan and $25/mo gas, $25/mo electricity, so the net cost is the same for me and at the end of it I'll have a car with no payments and very very little cost of ownership for many years to come. There weren't any available used when I bought mine, and even now those that are used and "a good deal" are often in pretty tough shape - lease owners and fleet owners are not known for taking as good care of their vehicles as 'real owners'.

With the Volt, I was a little concerned about how the vehicle was treated as well, as there are no old versions of these drivetrains for reference, so I decided that for the first time I would pony up and buy my own to drive from mile 0. (mile 244 in my case). The drivetrain comes with an 8 year 100,000 mile warranty, so it will be a long time before I ever have to deal with that portion of it. If the thing makes 100,000 with no major issues, then I won't be too concerned about it's longevity. As it turns out, it's proving to be very reliable and I'm glad I made the stretch to purchase it. I've got 2 years and 30,000 miles on mine and it's been an absolute joy to drive.

I also have kids. It's comforting to know the vehicle has a 5 star crash rating for 2013, a bajillion airbags and active suspension for when the shit hits the fan. For whatever that's worth. I'm not saying that I keep my kids in a bubble, but for what we do the majority of our traveling in, why not have the latest and greatest protecting us?

Another thing - I live in New England. Anything approaching 10 years old has some serious questions about how much road salt it's seen and whether or not it's ever been washed... it's very likely that your car that looks great at 8 years old is about to crumble to dust at 12 years old... and I'm kind of getting tired of that after dealing with it for 25 years.

KnowsAboutCars > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 08:39

Tell me about it...

People probably think it's ''safer'' to buy new car from dealership. They don't bother with researching what used car market has to offer and look at the prices and vague spec lists of their nearest Toyota or Nissan dealership and end up buying a new Camry/Altima.

BTW if it's not too intrusive to ask, what you do for living? 80k seems quite a lot for running that car exportation business you've written about here before.

Party-vi > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 08:41

Median household income in the US is $51,000 USD so yeah, you make a nice bit of scratch. I'm just at $58,000 which would be nice if it weren't in the DC Metro/Baltimore area.

DipodomysDeserti > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 08:42

They don't cost $30k unless you pay MSRP (which you shouldn't) and a Subaru isn't going lose $10k in three years.

deekster_caddy > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 08:47

With leasing you "know" what the depreciation is going to be upfront, and that's exactly what your monthly payment is. You basically buy the car at regular price, then have a guaranteed buyer at another price waiting for you in 3 years. You pay monthly for the difference between the purchase price and known sale price. The monthly payment is a lot lower than a new car payment.

I recently talked a friend into leasing who didn't drive many miles and was always complaining about maintenance on his 10 year old car. He had bought new, paid it off and held onto it. Things were dying of age - shocks/struts, exhaust rot, brakes etc... he added up all he had spent on his vehicle over 10 years including the original purchase and current trade value, and figured out that over 10 years he has paid exactly the same as if he had been leasing a new car for the entire time.

I drive too many miles to lease, and do my own maintenace, but it works for him.

and 100 more > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 08:56

You see, it's just the food chain.

There are those who hunt down a brand new car, take what they can from it, then leave the rest.

Then there's you. It may come across cure to refer to you as a "scavenger" but please take it in context: you don't look for fresh kill; you conserve your limited resources and prosper all the same. But you depend in those guys who make the initial kill, to provide you with a secondary market. So theyre not stupid, theyre necessary.

Then there's me, and i pick the bones of what you left behind.

Then there's guys who scour craigslist looking for part-outs, just to keep their 93 Cavalier roadworthy. We dont judge them; it is their place in the circle.

And that, Simba, is the circle of life.

Tekamul > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 08:56

Yeah, even though I bounce around from new cars, to mildly used, to beaters for certain purposes, I don't think I'd touch a 100k mile M5 if I needed to add 40k more miles to it. $3k a year would probably be a good year by comparison. Double double-VANOS (that's 4 vanoses!) concerns me. Even if you want to turn wrenches yourself, you're talking about a FULL weekend of work, if you know what you're doing when those seals fail.

Also, when you go to sell that 140k mile M5 for $15k (at that time, being between 15 and 20 years old) be prepared to sit on it for a long time.

It's a pretty narrow market for someone with $15k in cash (good luck getting an auto loan on that) who wants a 20 year old uber-sedan, sure to be filled with creaks and leather cracks.

But that's just my opinion.

Flavien Vidal > and 100 more
01/02/2015 at 09:03

hahah love the analogy!

Yes it's pretty much what I think... Really perfectly analogy right here :)

Flavien Vidal > deekster_caddy
01/02/2015 at 09:15

I've lived in Montreal for 7 years so yeah I know about salt :)

Sure in your case a coming from 300$/ month of payment over a gas guzzling car, it's a good thing... But then again... 300$x12 months x 5 years... That's 18000$.

18000$ you are never going to see again. Now spend, today, 15k$ on 15 years old german saloon. How much will you sell it in 5 years? Maybe more than you paid for actually...

So that's, worst case scenario 2 or 3000$ lost over 5 years in depreciation, if you drive a lot or if you just have no luck with your choice. Best case scenario, you even make 1 or 2k$ on it after 5 years.

Maintenance... Sure it can be time consumming... But it takes quite a bit of bad luck before you reach over 5 or 6000$ of maintenance on a 15$K car over 5 years... As I said before, it never happened to me... Far from that.

So what's left is gas... Yes, you can save 6 or 7000$ worth of gas over 5 years... But is it worth it? 5 years in a conforatble luxurious car vs 5 years in a Volt?

BTW don't you have to change the batteries after a while on those?

Flavien Vidal > KnowsAboutCars
01/02/2015 at 09:18

That's not what I'm doing now... That's what I want to do in 2 years or so... Right now, I do something else... Basically saving for the car importation business.

If you want to know what I do exactly, you can contact me here flavien at restlessboards.com, but I'd rather not go "public" about it for now for multiple reasons :)

Flavien Vidal > Party-vi
01/02/2015 at 09:24

Then againI haven't been making that kind of money for very long... So I don't have a pile of money saved on the side yet :)

Flavien Vidal > Tekamul
01/02/2015 at 09:29

You're definitly not wrong... Then again, the E39 M5 is an extreme exemple. Lots of other cars are in the same situation/price range, and are a lot less "scary" to own... :)

Twinpowermeansoneturbo > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 09:31

That is not so. The average car lease is 36 months and the majority of leases have more than a 50% residual value for the vehicle. You could lease a brand new car two times, and end up better off than purchasing a car and trading it in after six years. Any length of ownership under 6 years, a lease ends up being the better option. If you are planning on keeping the car for more than 6 years, you end up owning the car long enough to offset the initial depreciation and get your money's worth. Exceptions to these rules of course are cars the don't lease out well (usually cheap base models: ie, the Mazda 2), and cars that hold their value very well (ie, the Subaru WRX).

KnowsAboutCars > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 09:33

I understand. Thanks for the answer!

Party-vi > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 09:36

I've been around $50k for the past 6 years and I still don't have a pile of money. I also don't want a new car, because I can't imagine making $500 a month payments for half a decade.

Flavien Vidal > Party-vi
01/02/2015 at 09:40

Exactly... I've spendt sooooo many years, struggling and eating pastas every freaking day that spending that kind of money on a car seems insane to me right now :)

But hey, who know, I might not care anymore in a few years...

It's just that for now, it just seems crazy to me when soemthing cheaper, just as practical and MUCH more fun is available for 1/3 of the price...

mazda616 > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 09:52

My wife and I bought a new 2013 Mazda CX-5 and paid it off after only a year. So now we have a reliable car for many years to come that still has a warranty.

Also, if no one is "stupid" and buying new cars, you won't have the chance to buy used ones.

WhiskeyGolf > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 09:55

If you plan on buying a car and driving it for a relatively long time (past the standard 3-4 years of normal leases), I think it makes more sense to buy new. As mentioned you get a nice warranty plus the peace of mind that you control the maintenance. By the time you're ready to trade or sell, depreciation will basically be in the same spot as a used version, so you're no further behind.

BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 09:55

Different strokes for different folks I guess. Brazilian market reality aside, I wouldn't recommend my brother or sister, who know exactly squat about cars, getting a cool used car that will break down on them all the time, leaving me in charge of fixing them up. That would be a veritable nightmare. It's already difficult to find parts for my 1995 Fiat in this shithole, imagine having to scavenge stuff for a less popular brand...

And then there are the Brazilian market realities. Forget all the cool old cars you see in America or Europe, down here we had exactly zero classic sports or muscle cars, and if you want to get one now, be prepared to pay more than you would for any brand new car thanks to taxes, transport and importing fees. A rough estimate for the price of importing a classic car is about 6 times it's original cost in dollars, and that was before the Dollar peaked at almost 3 reais. I figure if I wanted to import a 5 Thousand dollars car now, I wouldn't spend much less than 50 Thousand reais.

Flavien Vidal > BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion
01/02/2015 at 10:01

Yes, I deal with Brazilian customers often and their taxes are insane... I can't imagine when it concerns a car :(

How much would a 2014 Corolla (or equivalent) cost in Brazil though?

Party-vi > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 10:03

I've been looking at a replacement for my E46 recently. It's got two more years until I hit 200,000 miles. By that time a 2009 E350 should be around $20k with less than 75,000 miles :D

Flavien Vidal > mazda616
01/02/2015 at 10:03

I know, I know, I need people to buy new cars :)

I just have a hard time dealing with friends who come up to me with their awesome new Maxima (they got a "great deal" on it!) and tell me how much better it is to spend so much on what is, in the end, a mid-range rental car...

Flavien Vidal > Party-vi
01/02/2015 at 10:05

Bingo ;)

deekster_caddy > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 10:05

No way I'm buying a 15 year old car to DD in New England. Salt will eat it quickly.

Believe me, I get what you are saying. Buying a new car never makes economical sense. I'm well aware of that but as I said, I decided I could afford to help support the EREV drivetrain and I want to see it succeed. BTW, the Volt is small, but very, very comfortable.

I most definitely don't want to pay to maintain a 15 year old German anything!!! I've got two other classics to suck up my maintenance budget. Plus, $28.5K is not all that much for a very nice new car worth way way more in technology alone.

Replace the battery? Maybe. Worst case scenario is that you start to lose some of your EV driving range. Out of pocket battery replacements have been around $3,000, similar pricing to a typical engine replacement.

There is a good chance I won't buy another new car, this was definitely what I consider a 'one-off'.

I've also been drooling over the Volt since it's 2007 announcement. I've always loved electric drive, but never been happy with the range limitations. This car gives the best of both worlds.

Flavien Vidal > deekster_caddy
01/02/2015 at 10:13

Well, I bought an 19 year old car to DD in Montreal and it has been the most reliable car I've ever owned yet... it was a 1995 LT1 Corvette with 160.000 miles on it... Every single day, by temperature down to -30 degrees, sleeping outside every night, in the snow and driven in potholes and traffic...

Sure it wasn't german, it wasn't full of electronics, but we can both agree that my E39 M5 exemple is a but of an extreme ;)

My point is that you should n't spend close to a year of salary in a car... I just feel that it's a huge waste. I may be wrong, I don't know. But one full year of salary... In a full option econobox.... Meh...

Flavien Vidal > KnowsAboutCars
01/02/2015 at 10:25

I use my real name here so I sort of want to keep my professional stuff private for now... wouldn't mind sharing if I used a fake name, but not with my real name

In a year or so I won't mind sharing but not now..

and 100 more > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 10:37

You'll have to forgive the typos and funky word choices... Kinja on my phone doesn't play nice, and I missed the window for making edits.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 10:38

I bought a new Passat TDI in 2012 that I intend to keep for ten years. It's worth spending the extra money to me for a car with zero history and a warranty. It's my 5th VW and 3rd TDI so I'm familiar with the brand.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 10:44

Yes they can be $15,000 problems.

Timing chain service on the B6/B7 S4 requires an engine pull. The parts themselves (including the cam tensioners and adjusters) are $3500 or so. Pulling, fixing, and reinstalling the engine will be about $5-8K in labor (I've heard that the local Audi dealer quotes $10K+ on B6 S4s), and there are plenty of ancillary stuff that you want to do to the engine while it's out of the chassis.

On the B5 S4, you have to pull the engine to replace or otherwise do anything to the turbos. And pulling the engine makes a lot of other things vastly easier if done at the same time as the turbos (like the timing belt and water pump, and the vacuum hoses and such).

A set of K04 turbos is ~$2500 for the turbos themselves, and require modified intakes and such, and you'll also want to upgrade the SMICs (another $1000), and the rest of the vacuum hoses and such on a 14 year old Audi V6, plus all the gaskets and labor, you'd easily be looking at $10K+ in work on a 14 year old car that might be $3000 in stock form with low-ish mileage.

So buying used isn't a cure-all of wasting money on a car, and there will always be examples of this.

However, if you are spending $30K all in on a Corolla + financing, you got screwed, or have a credit score where you likely shouldn't be using credit to buy much of anything, and should have greater focus on paying your debts, amirite? :)

Long Live the Longdoor > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 11:04

A Corvette in Montreal, year round? Sweet! How's she handle the snow?

Tohru > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 11:39

It's funny you mention Corollas - my dad works for a Toyota dealership. One of the other salesmen had an older customer come in and pay by check $42,000 for two 2014 Corollas - Christmas presents to his children.

I've seriously considered buying a new Cruze or smart, since I drive a lot for work and it sucks having to do it in a 1988 Dodge-branded Mitsubishi that won't even idle half the time and that jounces over expansion gaps. If I bought one of those, I would be proud of it not because of what it is, but because it's my car. Even some of the terrible shitboxes I've had, I had some pride in simply because they were mine.

m-b-w loves his SUBAROO > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 12:44

for some cars it makes complete sense to buy used, but for me when I was shopping for an Outback, the used ones were close to, or higher than the new one I was planning to purchase. I decided that the new one was worth it, as it was a complete redesign, with many improvements for the same price as a comparable used model.

deekster_caddy > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 14:31

Ah. Well the Volt certainly didn't cost me a full years salary, I can afford it.

BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 21:04

If I remember correctly, the 2.0 versions starts out at 82 grand. No idea on how much the 1.8 liter goes for though.

Flavien Vidal > Long Live the Longdoor
01/02/2015 at 23:00

Did a little write up on that last year...

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/living-with-a-…

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Flavien Vidal
01/02/2015 at 23:15

To clarify what I meant by Lemon the warranty and lemon laws ensure that what you buy isn't immediately going to fall apart. A buddy of mine bought a 2002 Accord. Month later transmission goes costing @1600 bucks.

The amount of depreciation is 1/3 of the total cost of ownership. If your flipping out this much about a car I wonder how you comprehend real estate.

Long Live the Longdoor > Flavien Vidal
01/03/2015 at 00:43

thats awesome! Thanks for sharing Flavien :) My want of buying a RWD car for year round use intensifies (I live in Ontario). I keep turning up with less and less excuses to buy a Miata or an older Corvette ;)

Flavien Vidal > BlazinAce - Doctor of Internal Combustion
01/03/2015 at 06:23

Hoooooly crap!

Flavien Vidal > Long Live the Longdoor
01/03/2015 at 08:10

Make sure you know what you're doing though... Corvettes on the snow are a handful, even with proper good snowtires... it can easily get very hairy to drive them...

Long Live the Longdoor > Flavien Vidal
01/03/2015 at 09:55

I learned to drive on an old GMC Vandura and drove it a lot during the winter. So, while she has good ground clearance, it was RWD, had no electrical nannies, gobs of power (albeit tonnes of weight) and normally fairly bald all season tires. Definitely not the same as a sports car, but you definitely learn to take it slow or end up sideways lol. Damn I miss that behemoth.

Flavien Vidal > Long Live the Longdoor
01/03/2015 at 18:25

Biggest difference is if you have a car with a LSD or not. A car with a LSD will be A LOT more twitchy than a car without. It's lots of fun, but people often wonder what the hell is going on when they look at you driving around lol

Long Live the Longdoor > Flavien Vidal
01/03/2015 at 19:52

wait, isn't a LSD supposed to help in the snow or no?

Flavien Vidal > Long Live the Longdoor
01/03/2015 at 22:10

Yes and no.

It will help to get you out of parking spots or when you are stucked. It will on the other hand make your car a lot more tail happy...